View source for User talk:Mqs/Greater Eschew Materials

== Discussion ==
I don't believe that XP should be Eschewed. How would eschewing GP interact with expensive foci? Would expensive material components be partially reduced, e.g. paying on 400gp for ''Stoneskin''? --<strong>[[User:Wizardoest|Randy]]</strong> ([[User talk:Wizardoest|Talk]]) 18:24, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
:I would not have it affect foci.  They are not consumed -- foci have never been a problem for me as a player or that I've heard from others.  Partial reduction seems feasible, but I would probably make it all or nothing.  In flavor, you need a single 5000 GP diamond -- not misc. diamonds worth up to 5000 GP.  (So balance, yes -- partial reduce; flavor and thematically, no -- do not reduce.)  --[[User:Mqs|Mqs]] 18:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
::Agree about foci. To decide between a) balance - partial reduction, and b) theme - no reduction, I would need to check out costly material components for spells. If costs fluctuate wildly I would favor option a with the right amount, otherwise I would lean towards option b. --<strong>[[User:Wizardoest|Randy]]</strong> ([[User talk:Wizardoest|Talk]]) 18:32, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
:You could make it like one of the crafting feats from Ebberon and just say that expensive componenets and foci cost 25% less. That seems reasonable to me. If foci seems a bit off, then have it effect MC only. --[[User:Askewnotion|Askewnotion]] 20:07, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
::The purpose, though, is not to make a 100 GP spell cost 75 GP, or a 25 GP spell (Hail of Stone) cost 19.  It's to make it such that you can cast those spells without any cost whatsoever.  Since Eschew Materials is typically itself an undervalued feat, the high-ish value of this is worth it.  This is why I'm in favor of not having it subtract anything at all from spells that cost more than its threshold.  Perhaps I could rephrase it as such:
<blockquote>"Spells with costly material components of XX GP or less have their instead require a focus of the same type and value.  As a focus, the item is not consumed when casting a spell."</blockquote>
::: A major question is should the feat allow the caster to be able to cast Stoneskin and True Seeing (both 250gp) without a GP cost after taking these two feats (Eschew and Greater Eschew). Considering the high value of feats for spellcasters, I say that Greater Eschew permit costly material components of 250 gp or less to be converted into foci. --<strong>[[User:Wizardoest|Randy]]</strong> ([[User talk:Wizardoest|Talk]]) 20:49, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
::::Changing to a foci seems pretty reasonable. If that is the case, maybe push the value up to 500GP or so. --[[User:Askewnotion|Askewnotion]] 20:58, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
::::: Considering the potency of ''Circle of Death/Undeath to Death'', I believe that permitting it's GP cost to be bypassed could get fairly abusive. From the SRD list, limiting the feat to material components of 250gp or less would only lose ''Sepia Snake Sigil'' and ''Binding''. Seeing material components costs from Spell Compendium may alter my opinion of where the GP limit should be, but definitely still never reaching 500gp. --<strong>[[User:Wizardoest|Randy]]</strong> ([[User talk:Wizardoest|Talk]]) 00:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

=== Variable Cost ===
As I created the list below, the question came to me of how this feat would affect spells that have a variable cost.  Really, the only ones in the cost range we've considered are Animate Dead and Create Undead.  I would say that a separate focus would be needed for each value in the range (a 25 GP one for a 1 HD zombie, a 50 GP one for 2 HD skeleton/zombies, etc).  While it'd still be costly initially to obtain the focus for all those values 25-XX that the feat would cover, it'd still be cheaper in the long term.  --[[User:Mqs|Mqs]] 23:28, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

== Spells with costly material components ==
To help with the discussion of the feat...
=== SRD ===
;Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead (25*HD, 50*HD)
: Could become very powerful with this.  However, with the corpsecrafter feats available, devoting two feats to make it costless is pretty steep.
: With proposed limit of 250 or 500 GP, this would cap at 10 HD or 20 HD for Animate Dead, half of that for Create.

;Arcane Lock (25)

;Astral Projection (1005+)

;Augury, Divination (25)
: And its whole chain of spells -- no one uses them because of their weakness and costliness

;Binding (500+)

;Bless Water/Curse Water (25)
: Economic problems with (un)holy water with this feat.

;Circle of Death/Undeath to Death (500)
: This is probably the single most potent spell in the list within the cost limit.

;Consecrate/Desecrate (25)

;Continual Flame (50)
: Economic problems.

;Crown of Glory (200)

;False Vision (250)

;Fire Trap (25)

;Forbiddance (1500+)

;Forcecage (1500)

;Glyph of Warding (200)

;Hallow/Unhallow (1000+)

;Identify (100)
: This is the spell that initially inspired me to write the feat.

;Illusory Script (50)

;Instant Summons (1000)

;Magic Mouth (10)

;Mental Pinnacle (250)

;Nondetection (50)

;Phantom Trap (50)

;Programmed Image (25)

;Refuge (1500)

;Restoration (100)
: Lesser has no cost, and greater costs XP.

;Sepia's Snake Sigil (500)

;Stoneskin (250)

;Symbol of Pain/Sleep/Fear/Persuasion/Stunning/Weakness/Death/Insanity (1000+)

;Sympathy (1500)

;Temporaral Stasis (5000)

;Wall of Iron (50)
: Economic issues.

;Teleportation Circle (1000)
: Economic issues.

;Transformation (250)

;True Seeing (250)

=== Elsewhere ===
;Acid Storm

;Anti-Dragon Aura

;Antimagic Ray

;Arrow of Bone

;Aura of Evasion

;Barghest's Feast

;Create Magic Tattoo

;Diamondsteel

;Discern Shapechanger

;Earth Lock

;Firebrand

;Hailstone (5 GP: Warmage 1, Wu Jen 1, Sor/Wiz 1)
: Already a strong spell, though it's starting to weaken and at max power by the time current prereqs (level 5).

;Hindsight

;Hardening

;Kiss of the Vampire

;Nightstalker's Transformation

;Phantom Foe

;Plague of Undead

;Programmed Amnesia

;Revive Undead

;Seal Portal

;Skeletal Guard

;Sign of Sealing [and Greater,]

;Summon Elemental Monolith

;Suspended Silence

;Symphonic Nightmare

;Undermaster

;Wall of Alignment

The Elsewhere list doesn't have gp value. Are those to be added for evaluation? --<strong>[[User:Wizardoest|Randy]]</strong> ([[User talk:Wizardoest|Talk]]) 00:42, 29 July 2009 (UTC)